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Mark Young's avatar

This is an excellent article, and I’d like to apply your ideas to part of your message.

I’ll start with this quote:

> I don’t think the words themselves mean things. I think people mean things, and the words they use are a method of conveying what they mean. I’ve been repeating this slogan for some time now: Words don’t mean things; people mean things.

But in your article you talk about “meaningful language”:

> As a result, the passage as a whole is nonsensical, for much the same reason one could not make complete sense of the demand that one “Please put the leerigs in the meldrif.” Yet, curiously, it mirrors meaningful language closely enough that it is still capable of giving the odd sense of being almost meaningful.

You talk about the language itself being meaningful, and this is a perfectly reasonable and practical way of speaking. But it is in tension with the claim that words don’t mean things.

To resolve this tension, I’d like to apply a definition analogous to the following:

> Irreducibly normative facts are facts which cannot be reduced to or cashed out in non-normative terms.

I don’t like to say that words don’t mean anything at all, but rather that they don’t have irreducible meanings. That is, the meanings of words must be reduced to what their users mean when they successfully convey that meaning. Word-meanings are reduced to person-meanings.

The speaker has some meaning that they’d like to convey to a listener. They express their meaning with words in the expectation that the listener will interpret those words into the same (or sufficiently similar) meaning of their own.

If they choose words poorly (using “wrench” instead of “hammer”, say, or “marshmallow” instead of “mushroom”), then the meaning in the listener may well be different than the meaning in the speaker. Perhaps the listener knows enuf of the speaker’s context to be able to correct for the speaker’s mistake. Perhaps she only knows enuf to infer that he made some kind of mistake. Or perhaps she just assumes that he meant what she heard.

In that vein, I’d like to complain about your use of the phrase “garbage in; garbage out”. It does not mean (to me) what you say it means in the article above. To me (and, I believe, to other computer programmers) it means that the answer a method gives depends on the input being correct. As a particular example, in the c programming language, arrays do not check their bounds. If you ask for arr[-3] the program may well extract the value that is three locations before the beginning of the array arr, even tho that is not actually part of the array. Garbage in: -3; garbage out: (some value, but not taken from the array). The method for extracting values from the array is fine, so long as you use indices that are in the array’s bounds. Hence Java’s requirement that the method for extracting a value from an array throw an exception when the index is out of bounds: Garbage in; failure.

Had you not explained what you meant, I would have taken your related claim to be odd or even nonsensical.

Anyway, the meaning the word (or phrase) conveys to listeners may be different from the meaning the speaker intends to convey. It is in this sense that the words used have meanings. People extract meanings from the words, and insist that the use of those words to attempt to convey different meanings is a mistake. Similarly, a person with moral attitudes largely in agreement with those of their community may say that some moral claim is a mistake. As I believe you understand, saying so does not entail a belief in irreducible norms.

Finally, based on my own beliefs about words and their meanings, I find your claim [that irreducible normativity is a nonsensical concept] problematic. When you explain in detail what you mean I’m right there with you. There’s no such thing, and there cannot be any such thing. But the word “nonsensical” seems to mean something different to me than it does to you. To encourage people to think more about what you mean instead of just relying on their own interpretations, perhaps you could use the term “irreferential” meaning (I recommend) that it not only does not refer to anything real, but that its supposed meaning is such that it could not possibly refer to anything real.

Counsel's avatar

Wittgenstein discusses Lewis Carroll quite a bit too. This post seems very Wittgenstein inspired.

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